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Old 13-09-08, 05:31 PM
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jpohl jpohl is offline
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Default re: transfering sketch/study to panel

I had noticed that Rahael would always use the pouncing method to transfer smaller or detailed images and grid for larger, and wondered if it is true that pouncing might lead to a more dynamic and natural underdrawing than tracing with a type of carbon paper?

Any thoughts on this?

I think i'd like to try pouncing rather than tracing sketches, but wasn't sure how to proceed. How far apart should the holes be? I think I had read about a special tool for pouncing, but perhaps a needle could work aswell.

Has anyone worked with pouncing?

I had wondered if it might have the added benefit of making it easier to recover lost lines if you lay the sheet on the panel, but would the paint surface be adversely affected with dust? Maybe it could be done with dry brushing?

Perhaps it isn't advisable to go in on top of a egg tempera paint with chalk or charcoal? Then again, if the work is done gradually is this all moot as lines shouldn't be lost?

I will be working in silverpoint and some casein for underpainting. Maybe re-pouncing on casein underpainting is less of an issue as it can be erased. Thinking ahead a little, and wondering about the degree of flexibility.

I'm eagerly waiting my first shipment of casein from zecchi's. ( A little off topic: shipping under a certain weight was more reasonable than I expected. I was told their casein emulsion which came highly recommended will last between one and two years if I transfer it to many smaller bottles and store them in the fridge. The more frequently it is opened the quicker it will go bad, which is generally about a month or two once in use. Perhaps I'll be brave enough to try making my own and see how it compares later on. )

all the best, jp. (Jenny)

Last edited by jpohl; 13-09-08 at 06:12 PM.
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Old 14-09-08, 05:09 AM
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Transferring and underdrawing is a perpetual problem. Pouncing would at least give the option of going back over the drawing if it is lost. At the moment I'm just drawing directly onto the gesso with chalk and then using just some water to paint into the chalk image by lifting and moving it. This works quite well and gives a very dynamic drawing. The next stage I use is to paint in farily large areas of casein over this all the time refining and improving the drawing. I never try and eliminate the drawing altogether. The final stage is to use ET in all its methods of application. Again I try not to eliminate either the remaining drawing or the casein underpainting entirely. At each step I aim for a dynamic image that hopefully can stand on its own. Because I am not trying to work from a totally finished image but rather trying to develop the drawing up into a painting it seems to have a very positive effect and is also, as a side benefit, very fast. One would think that this can lead to a very "loose" painting, but in fact it can be refined easily to almost any level of detail and realism - not that that is my great interest.
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Old 14-09-08, 03:03 PM
dbclemons dbclemons is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpohl View Post
...Has anyone worked with pouncing?...
I have, yes, just to get an understanding for how it used to be done. It was a pain in the ***! I took a thin embroidery needle and poked holes in a thick piece of layout vellum along the drawn lines, making holes about 1/8" apart. There's a netting fabric that is used in embroidery you can place under the paper to support it while you poke holes which keeps it from tearing.

All the while I kept wondering why I was doing this the hard way? It's by far more work than just using tracing paper. There's no benefit of the holes in going over them again that you can't also do with tracing paper. The holes also make the paper more fragile.

I have an article on my website about how I make my own transfer paper with pigment and turpentine that you may find useful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpohl View Post
...casein emulsion which came highly recommended will last between one and two years if I transfer it to many smaller bottles and store them in the fridge. The more frequently it is opened the quicker it will go bad, which is generally about a month or two once in use. Perhaps I'll be brave enough to try making my own and see how it compares later on. )...
Once you make your own you'll never go back, trust me. How large is the container? If that's a liquid medium, you shouldn't need to break it down into smaller containers. Keep the larger container refrigerated, and just pour it into small containers as you use it. I have a small plastic squeeze bottle which I also keep in the fridge.
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Old 14-09-08, 07:54 PM
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and now I find out I have been spelling transferring wrong all these years! (-:

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbclemons View Post
I have, yes, just to get an understanding for how it used to be done. It was a pain in the ***! I took a thin embroidery needle and poked holes in a thick piece of layout vellum along the drawn lines, making holes about 1/8" apart. There's a netting fabric that is used in embroidery you can place under the paper to support it while you poke holes which keeps it from tearing.

All the while I kept wondering why I was doing this the hard way? It's by far more work than just using tracing paper. There's no benefit of the holes in going over them again that you can't also do with tracing paper. The holes also make the paper more fragile.

I have an article on my website about how I make my own transfer paper with pigment and turpentine that you may find useful.



Once you make your own you'll never go back, trust me. How large is the container? If that's a liquid medium, you shouldn't need to break it down into smaller containers. Keep the larger container refrigerated, and just pour it into small containers as you use it. I have a small plastic squeeze bottle which I also keep in the fridge.
I got a 300 ml in a plastic bottle to fit under the weight, and to allow a few pigments. I'm going to take Massimo's advice about putting it in smaller bottles. You may be right, but I'm going to play it safe. I can't expect to place orders with Florence too often, but it was fun getting to try a few words in Italian even if I said thank you in Spanish by mistake.. or so my husband tells me.

(a little off topic again: Web consultants say it's more secure ordering over land line phones than sending credit card numbers via email, and that paypal and secure websites (with the little lock sybol in the url) are even better. Paypal also has the benefit of cutting out fees for currency conversion etc, which makes me very happy to find suppliers like Rosemary & Co. who offer it as an option. I encouraged them to start using paypal, but then again, Zecchi's hasn't had any security problem with using email to date.)

I'll take your warning about pouncing under consideration (and I may be kicking myself) but I'm still tempted to try it out. Has anyone else had a better experience with the process, or suggestions to make? I hadn't thought about wetting chalk lines, but that is something to consider. What kind of chalk are you using Jeff? Do you make your own? I was getting some white conte and wanted to make some black chalks with roman earth for some studies on blue paper.

I wonder what type of paper was traditionally used? I was using fabriano for studies and was considering putting the holes directly in it, but risk losing the original if I mess up ... it seems the more times you trace a line the further away, or more forced the line could become. The nuances of the line can sometimes be lost the more often it's traced over in the effort to get an even pressure and transfer a line. Maybe it depends on how well or patiently a person traces.

It may depends on the artist and what they are comfortable with. What would be a limitation for one person could be freeing for another. I'd love to hear the different ways in which people apply the first lines to a panel.

Perhaps I only need to try pouncing once to see if it works for me, but if anyone has any other tips or advice I'd greatly appreciate them. (-:

update: I just came across a demo (although not for painting) here: http://www.marysmaiolicaarts.com/inf...y/pouncing.htm.
It seems a lot of art stores carry pounce wheels (eg. http://www.dickblick.com/zz289/11/) I also read about an electric pounce machine, but couldn't find an example. I'd be curious to try one to see how it compares to other methods of transfer, but wonder if they can possibly be as sensitive as a pencil over paper, and if the holes are so close wouldn't it defeat the aim of a more spontaneous line on the panel? Perhaps a needle would be more effective from this point of view. I can see how it could be very useful with detailed geometric patterns or transferring an image on a high ceiling (with the speed and precision, and being able to reuse the pattern.) If the dots were further apart would the line be more natural? It reminds me a little of the technique used with the Charles Bargue plates, and sight-size methods, although the degree of freedom/dynamism in joining the dots may depend on the artist.

Last edited by jpohl; 15-09-08 at 06:21 AM.
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  #5  
Old 15-09-08, 12:14 PM
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cmunisso cmunisso is offline
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Jenny,
I try to replay at your questions (my apologizes for the aproximate english)...
This pouncing method is called in Italia "spolvero" (dredged, to dust), and is used with a paper called "carta da spolvero". This paper is quite strong and yellow (ocra) coloured, it's selled in rolls about 1.70 x 20 meters, and it's quite cheap.

The main use of the spolvero is in wall fresco painting, it's possible use on board too, but not is the best because the detail not is so fine and requires a moist surface for best result.... The complete description of this method is quite long....

But if you need to try the spolvero on gesso board, it's better with a light color pigmet, like natural sienna instead of black charcoal.

Someone about spolvero talk about "join the dots", but this not convey the idea, it's better talk about "draw over the dots", the dots are only a "pale" help trace, your drawing must remain natural and free.
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Old 15-09-08, 07:40 PM
scottawms scottawms is offline
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There is an electric pounce machine on eBay with a $5 starting price. It will create varying sized holes. These are most often used by sign painters. It's called an Electro Pounce:

http://snipr.com/3qjl8

However, this seems like overkill. I agree with dbclemons suggestion regarding transferring drawings with tracing paper.
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  #7  
Old 16-09-08, 03:18 AM
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Dennis H Dennis H is offline
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I can't see any benefit to pouncing except perhaps on very large works, like frescos. Even then, a lot of muralists trace/incise their cartoons into the wet plaster rather than pounce.
For tempera panels, I prefer to copy my preliminary drawing onto tracing paper, rub across the back of the tracing paper with a piece of red chalk (from Zecchi), and then draw over the tracing to transfer the image. You don't have to coat the entire back surface of the tracing, just follow the lines from the front.
It all takes just a few minutes. Couldn't be much simpler.
D
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Old 16-09-08, 03:21 AM
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The Electro Pounce does indeed seem like overkill but manual pounce wheels are common painting accessories.

http://www.dickblick.com/zz289/11/
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  #9  
Old 16-09-08, 04:06 PM
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What I do is very simple. I work on my final image using part photos mixed with a pencil drawing until I am happy with it. Then, I scan the whole thing into Photoshop and fix any mistakes I find. Then, I print it with my trusty "inexpensive" printer. I turn the copy over and cover the back with a dark pencil (Ebony or 6b). I then turn the copy right side up and trace the image onto the panel. I find that the pencil erases very easily if I don't like something. I have been using this technique for about 10 years and I like it a lot.

Good luck!
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  #10  
Old 18-09-08, 02:36 AM
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I think the trouble with transfering is that it takes what is often a pretty good drawing and then ruins it onto gesso by removing all the really nice gestural touches and flattening the effect. It then becomes a sort of psychological obstacle (at least for me) to overcome that deadness before getting anywhere with the result. Horses for courses though.
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