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  #11  
Old 08-11-11, 08:22 PM
Silver Lining Silver Lining is offline
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Thanks for the explanation, Koo.
I have tried Natrual Pigments Roman Black but I found it was on the translucent side and kind of grainy. I will look at the Mars black from N.P. and Kremer, thanks.
Instead of varnish, couldn't you turn the dry stone to more of a wet stone by putting a layer of plane medium over the top of it, then buffing it? I have had mixed results doing this. Sometime it looks a little streaky.

-S

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Originally Posted by Koo Schadler View Post
Hello Silver,

For years I got my Mars black from Kremer, a manufactured version. Here is the order info: Mars Black Brownish, Kremer # 48440.

I like that color, still use it, but I'm also playing with Natural Pigments natural Mars black, just to see what the differences are. That info is: Natural Black Oxide , Natural Pigments Rublev # 480-30B. I think so far I'm preferring Kremer's, which also happens to be a bit less expensive, I believe. In general its an inexpensive pigment.

Your colors will get more saturated to the extent you fully blanket that brilliant white gesso panel that can very subtly come through, surprisingly so, after many layers. But no, unfortunately the refractive index itself doesn't change no matter how many layers you put on. I build up my blacks with 30 or more layers of the various colors I mentioned, and its a beautiful color, truly a black - and I can give it some degree of shine (and thus increase its refractive index) a bit by polishing. But it becomes a different black - drops 1 or 2 steps in value - when I put a varnish on top. It the difference between a dry rock and a wet rock. The dry rock has plenty of rich color throughout (just like the many layers of a tempera painting) but that color looks different when wet.

The darkest values are affected the most by the whole refractive index issue: the value of a varnished yellow in tempera changes a little, a varnished red a bit more, a varnished black the most. I am not at all advocating for varnishing - we've had that discussion! I only mean to say that unvarnished tempera has a certain value range unique to it, and it will never be the same as the values achieved in oil.

Koo
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  #12  
Old 10-11-11, 01:09 AM
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Koo Schadler Koo Schadler is offline
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Hello Silver,

A layer of egg yolk medium, preferably thinned with a bit more water so it isn't too gummy, can be applied on top of a painting at any point in the process - as a sort of retouch varnish, if you've under tempered your colors, or at the end of a painting to even out the shine. Its called a nourishing layer in the icon tradition. But you shouldn't put on too many such layers in the course of a painting, as it disrupts the logical building of paint layers (too much fat to lean to fat to etc... going on).

As a final "varnish" of sorts, I wouldn't recommend more than one or two nourishing layers - too many and you'll get an eggy, sticky surface. You should cure it well before polishing since it is an eggy layer. Putting it in sunlight (making sure it is protected from bugs and raindrops) is the best way to speed up curing. A final nourishing layer will bring up the refractive index a tad, and turn your dry rock a bit more wet looking. But your darks still won't be comparable to what you get in oil or with a varnish. Can't escape the lower refractive index of yolk. (On the upside, yolk gets brighter with age, whereas oil and varnishes tend to yellow :-)).

Koo

PS - I apply nourishing layers with a cosmetic sponge so I get a more amorphous, line-free layer of egg, no streaks. Takes a bit of practice (like everything in tempera!)

Last edited by Koo Schadler; 10-11-11 at 01:12 AM.
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  #13  
Old 10-11-11, 03:42 AM
Silver Lining Silver Lining is offline
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Thanks Koo. That all makes sense. I will give Mars Black a try. Sounds like it will temper pretty well and not be too fat. At least better than the Lamp black I have been using.

Sometime my nourishing layers look like glass. Sometimes they are a little streaky.

I have been using a cobalt turquoise that needs a good nourishing layer over it to get some sheen. If not, it is a dull as sand. Do you know of a turquoise that tempers well (and has a good sheen on its own without a nourishing layer)?

Thanks,
-S

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koo Schadler View Post
Hello Silver,

A layer of egg yolk medium, preferably thinned with a bit more water so it isn't too gummy, can be applied on top of a painting at any point in the process - as a sort of retouch varnish, if you've under tempered your colors, or at the end of a painting to even out the shine. Its called a nourishing layer in the icon tradition. But you shouldn't put on too many such layers in the course of a painting, as it disrupts the logical building of paint layers (too much fat to lean to fat to etc... going on).

As a final "varnish" of sorts, I wouldn't recommend more than one or two nourishing layers - too many and you'll get an eggy, sticky surface. You should cure it well before polishing since it is an eggy layer. Putting it in sunlight (making sure it is protected from bugs and raindrops) is the best way to speed up curing. A final nourishing layer will bring up the refractive index a tad, and turn your dry rock a bit more wet looking. But your darks still won't be comparable to what you get in oil or with a varnish. Can't escape the lower refractive index of yolk. (On the upside, yolk gets brighter with age, whereas oil and varnishes tend to yellow :-)).

Koo

PS - I apply nourishing layers with a cosmetic sponge so I get a more amorphous, line-free layer of egg, no streaks. Takes a bit of practice (like everything in tempera!)
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  #14  
Old 17-11-11, 11:53 PM
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Koo Schadler Koo Schadler is offline
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Sorry Silver, can't help you with that one. I don't use any turquoise colored pigments. When I want a green blue, I use glazes of prussian and viridian - however both of those are pretty dark, so you'd need to add some white to get a mid turquoise value. Both prussian and especially viridian are so called "fat" colors, and need a wee tiny bit less egg than most colors when tempered properly.

Koo
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  #15  
Old 20-11-11, 06:20 PM
Silver Lining Silver Lining is offline
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Thanks for the feedback, Koo. I have been staying away from Viridian for toxicity reasons but may try it to see if I can get a turquoise that tempers well.
-S

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Originally Posted by Koo Schadler View Post
Sorry Silver, can't help you with that one. I don't use any turquoise colored pigments. When I want a green blue, I use glazes of prussian and viridian - however both of those are pretty dark, so you'd need to add some white to get a mid turquoise value. Both prussian and especially viridian are so called "fat" colors, and need a wee tiny bit less egg than most colors when tempered properly.

Koo
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