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  #1  
Old 23-09-05, 04:00 AM
Rosemary Rosemary is offline
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Default egg tempera over oil paint?

There is an article in the October/November issue of International Artist by a fellow named Helmut Ditsch who paints large landscapes on canvas in oil and egg tempera. On page 44 under the caption of the painting Delta, he states that he puts egg tempera on top of the final layer of oil paint. He says that he acquired this technique during his study at the Academy of FIne Arts in Vienna, Austria.

Has anybody out there ever heard of doing this? It seems to me that it would violate the fat over lean rule for oil painting. I have tried sending this guy an email for clarification of his technique but no answer so far. All the other references to a mixed technique that I have found speak of using oil glazes over egg tempera underpainting.

He is shipping these paintings some distance so that he has to ship rolled and stretch when they are installed. He has a website www.helmut-ditsch.com which seems to be incomplete.

Thanks for any others thoughts.
Rosemary
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Old 23-09-05, 07:04 PM
turlogh turlogh is offline
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Egg tempera applied in small areas over wet oil paint is an old and tested procedure. I would never use ET in large areas over dried oil paint, especially on canvas, no matter what academy thinks it's a good idea. It's not.
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Old 23-09-05, 08:40 PM
Rosemary Rosemary is offline
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Default Thanks, David

I am always looking for ways to do very large paintings and I love the matt look of egg tempera, so it sounded interesting. Perhaps he is only adding sharpening touches of egg tempera.

How wet does the oil need to be? tacky?

Rosemary
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Old 24-09-05, 01:28 PM
turlogh turlogh is offline
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Default Re: Thanks, David

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosemary
How wet does the oil need to be? tacky?
Fully wet is best. The ET sinks into and binds with the oil paint without blurring. It's a pretty neat effect.
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  #5  
Old 22-10-05, 10:02 PM
Christian Vibert
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Default Re: egg tempera over oil paint?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosemary
Has anybody out there ever heard of doing this?
Rosemary
Yes, I have.

This technique is named "technique mixte". You must always work in two times :
1) You work with pigments, oil and resin glazes.
2) When this first coat becomes sticky (about ten minutes), you can overpaint it with an egg/oil/resin emulsions.

With this technique, you are able to work again and again, always observing these two times. It's basically the way I paint.

Christian
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Old 23-10-05, 06:53 PM
Rosemary Rosemary is offline
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Default Thanks, Christian

I visited a fellow who has an atelier in Monflanquin and teaches a way of painting "mixte" but it was a variation of using emulsion for the grisaille and underpainting and resin for the final coats. I saw a show of his students' work and it was astounding. (I can't think of his name at the moment.)

This is the first time I have heard of alternating the layers wet in wet. I will have to try it. Do you have any images of your paintings on the web?

Rosemary
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Old 23-10-05, 09:38 PM
Christian Vibert
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Default Re: Thanks, Christian

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosemary
I visited a fellow who has an atelier in Monflanquin and teaches a way of painting "mixte" but it was a variation of using emulsion for the grisaille and underpainting and resin for the final coats. I saw a show of his students' work and it was astounding. (I can't think of his name at the moment.)
I have heard about this atelier. I think the paint you speak is Patrick Betaudier.

Personally, I have studied the technique mixte with Nicolas Wacker, an old professor at the ENSBA (Ecole Nationale Supérieure des Beaux-Arts de Paris). He has written a book : "La peinture à partir du matériau brut" in wich he explains this technique.

You can use different products to realise the glazes and to obtain the emulsion, but the basical principle is always to paint the emulsion (very lean) over the first coat of glazes (more fat) during the time it is enough wet. Then the glazes are painted when the emulsion is dried. And so...
You can paint a grisaille with the emulsion and then glazing it, but you can also use all the usual colours with the emulsion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosemary
Do you have any images of your paintings on the web?
No, sorry. I have not yet a scanner or a digital camera...

Do you use actually Egg Tempera straight ? I have never use it, only in emulsion with oil and resin. The paint seems to dry very quickly. Is it still possible to obtain smooth blending brush marks only with Egg Tempera ?

Christian
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  #8  
Old 24-10-05, 05:54 PM
Alessandra Kelley Alessandra Kelley is offline
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I think most of the people on this forum use egg tempera straight. It does dry awfully fast, so that the methods of blending developed for oils will not work, but there are ways to get smooth blending. Like Rob M, I often "scrub" (with cheap brushes!) to get one color to blend smoothly with another; this works best for me with almost dry brushes, with almost all of the paint wiped out. One can also do the Daniel V. Thompson technique of endless translucent tiny brushstrokes of similar shades of color to blend. I have done this, but the slowness of it drives me buggy.

I haven't done much with any mixed technique, but I can definitely see possibilities.
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  #9  
Old 24-10-05, 10:43 PM
Christian Vibert
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessandra Kelley
Like Rob M, I often "scrub" (with cheap brushes!) to get one color to blend smoothly with another; this works best for me with almost dry brushes, with almost all of the paint wiped out.
Thank you, Alessandra, for your answer.
In fact, I know this way to obtain smooth blending. With the egg/oil/resin emulsion, the paint does not dry so quickly than with egg tempera straight, but the same technique can be used because the paste is very "short". I like this manner to work. I did not know that it were also possible to use it with egg tempera straight.
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  #10  
Old 25-10-05, 04:28 PM
Rosemary Rosemary is offline
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Default Technique mixte

Christian wrote

Quote:
I have heard about this atelier. I think the paint you speak is Patrick Betaudier.

Personally, I have studied the technique mixte with Nicolas Wacker, an old professor at the ENSBA (Ecole Nationale Supérieure des Beaux-Arts de Paris). He has written a book : "La peinture à partir du matériau brut" in wich he explains this technique.
Patrick was the artist. He used a methyl cellulose emulsion rather than egg as it doesn't spoil and smell. I didn't know about Nicholas Wacker. Is the book still available? I can read French, though not too fast, and I would like to know more about the technique as I am now mostly painting very large paintings on canvas using acrylic and oil rather than smaller egg tempera work on rigid supports. I still use egg tempera for painting for exhibitions of small work such as we have around the holidays.

I tend to blend pure egg tempera by putting on a very light, dry wash of color and following it with a different color, using warm over cool, etc. I have also used the fine crosshatching method by taking a flat brush and cutting out some of the hairs to make many tiny points. My current favorite is a sable fillbert (oval tip) #12 that splays out nicelyand so has not needed trimming. I can't remember what the French term is for that brush shape. I think my technique is similiar to what Alessandra describes. I will have to try her variant with an old brush and more scrubbing than stroking. Thanks to both of you for the info.
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