Wet or Dry poll

[Dennis H]

A few people said they would like to know how you all kept your pigments stored: ground into a paste and kept in a jar, or left in powdered form?
Perhaps, comment on whether you do different things with different pigments.
Thanks,
Dennis

[Rosemary]

Dry- I have a large number of pigments and I vary my palette depending on what I am painting. I wet a spatula full of the dry pigment with a few drops from a dropper bottle of ethyl alcohol, then add a few drops of water before adding diluted egg yolk.

[JeanM]

I like wet best, because I think it's safer, as well as faster.

[Alessandra Kelley]

I'm with JeanM. Wetting pigments keeps down all that dangerous dust. I wear a serious OSHA mask for the brief time when my pigments are still dry, then I go with water forever.

If you drop and shatter a jar of wet pigment, it's a nuisance, not a biohazard.
Wet pigments don't easily get into the air and your lungs and your house.
Wet pigments are ready to paint with -- just add egg.
Wet pigments show more accurately what the final paint color will be.

Dry pigments pose a serious health risk. I would be curious to hear the arguments for keeping them dry.

[Rosemary]

Your are quite right about the hazards. My only reason is sheer laziness as I have yet to find the perfect little jar that will prevent drying. I don't like the cardboard lined lids either. I saw the note about the little jam jars and they sound perfect so I will have to order two boxes of them and spend a day setting up the bottleworks. I have tried keeping some wet pigments in film canisters and they are just a hassle as the shape is wrong and when the lid pops off, pigment flies everywhere.

I admire your care with this materials and thank you for setting a good example. :oops:

[Bert Congdon]

Always wet. I can mix for the color I want, then add the egg. Mixing dry I don't have a clew, or I have a bunch of colors with egg that can't be put back.

[PhilS]

I keep my pigments wet. It's almost impossible to mix up powdered pigments without stirring up dust.

Exceptions are titanium white and ultramarine blue. They get hard when stored under water so I keep them dry.

I've stopped using cadmium red simply because it's a pain in the butt to mix with water. You stir and stir and watch little toxic pink clouds swirl up...

Phil

[Alessandra Kelley]

In my experience the perfect jars for pigments are baby food jars. They are a good size, squat and unlikely to tip over, and the lids have some sort of silicon sealer built right in -- no cardboard to get soggy. The lids screw on perfectly tight without much effort. Cleaned and boiled (lids too) they will last for years -- I have had some pigments for over 15 years now in baby food jars, and they have not dried out nor gotten moldy.

If you don't know someone producing a supply of empty baby food jars, you can eat the stuff yourself -- it's healthy, salt-free, if a little mushy. Anyway, once you have the jars, they will last forever.

I have an enormous variety of pigments, dozens and dozens. It was a lot of work to grind them all in water, but I consider it an investment of time and effort well worth it.

[dakini_painter]

Hi,

I keep my pigments dry in small plastic containers used for storing coins (for coin collections). I use the size for US quarters which holds a decent amount of pigment for painting purposes (for me).

I use small white ceramic plates as my mixing area. The quantities of pigment I use range from about the size of a pea to a bean. Most of the traditional pigments such as the earths will happily absorb a drop or two of water to form a paste. Modern organic pigments often require a drop of two of (rubbing) alcohol (drugstore kind, 91%) for proper dispersal before adding the water. Then I add my egg medium.

I add these liquids with an eyedropper with the tip as close to the pigment as possible.

In theory, yes it probably creates 'dust'. I'm dealing with such small quantites that my exposure is minimal. My most hazardous pigments are the cobalts and cadmiums. And they are so dense that they like to sit right where they are. The light and fluffy pigments which want to go everywhere tend to be less hazardous than these.

Enough dust of even the most benign kind will damage your body in sufficient quantities over sufficient time. I, for one, am not dealing with those kind of situations.

Now if you want to talk about dust, work in pastels. There you have DUST. When I work in pastel I work flat, not vertical for this reason. And I do avoid cadmium pigments where possible. But the cobalts are too beautiful to ignore.

[Sarah]

As a relatively new ET painter I've been going with the advice on this forum, most of which seems to have indicated that wet is easier, faster and safer.

Not having an endless supply of jars, however, and being a great believer in the freedom of the limited pallette, I keep about 8 or 9 pigments in the wet form, mix ultramarine blue and titanium white on a daily basis, and occasionally do the same with tiny amounts one of my rarely used pigments when it seems that it will be "just the thing".

Query -- As some of the pigments do need alcohol to prevent flocculating -- that irritating habit of refusing to wet, my husband (a professor of chemistry) suggested an alcohol alternative -- a drop or two of something nice smelling like scotch. Some might consider it a waste, but rubbing alcohol does smell so awful. Thoughts?

Thanks always to everyone for the generous sharing of information

Sarah

[brianhendrickson]

Since I've only been doing egg tempera for a few months, I hesitate to refer to any techniques I've acquired as "habits"--they're simply "activities I perform because I don't know any better."

I've found that I tend to leave the dry pigments in the nifty glass jars that Sinopia sends them in. I'll keep them in paste form only if the color is one that I've had to mix up myself, and then only in a quantity that I Know (or at least hope) to be sufficient to finish off the painting that I mixed it for.

I have a steady source of baby food jars by way of my ravenously hungry infant nephew, however I believe this source is soon to come to an end if the way he's been eyeing pork chops is any indicator.

I avoid using the toxic pigments, so I'm not terribly concerned about the miniscule amount of dust that gets kicked up when I open the jars. I admit though, that I think Uranium Green 235 is a lovely color. I've always wanted to paint glow-in-the-dark paintings....

[Salamander]

Sarah,
It sounds like a fair idea to me. You could probably use ouzo, (or maybe retsina) and effect some preservative quality as well.
Eric in Oceanside

[JeffG]

....Query -- As some of the pigments do need alcohol to prevent flocculating -- that irritating habit of refusing to wet, my husband (a professor of chemistry) suggested an alcohol alternative -- a drop or two of something nice smelling like scotch. Some might consider it a waste, but rubbing alcohol does smell so awful. Thoughts?...

I never tried rubbing (drugstore) alcohol, I was always under the impression that denatured (paint store) alcohol was the thing to use. I don't know if the smell of denatured would be offensive to you, but I've heard that high-proof vodka or grain alcohol can be used.

[Lafleur]

I take about a tablespoon of pigment with about a half teaspoon of sterilized bottled water, grind it in a mortar and pestle set, until a paste. Then I add an equal amount of egg/water. I then stir it into a paint and then go do just that, paint! I paint on canvas that has about a half dozen layers of rabbit skin glue gesso on it, that I make with either french whiting or marbledust. I RSG the canvas to mahogany door skin panel that is on top a stretcher bar. I have been painting like this for years now. I started using ET around 1990. I taught myself using Thompson's for a guide. Made a ton of mistakes (some of which have been addressed here in the forum). Painted directly on wood, canvas, cardboard, and paper. My biggest mistake was painting on acrylic gesso in the early years, and yes they flaked and peeled as a result. My biggest challenge now is trying to keep consistency in the sheen from one mix of paint to the next batch. I do not varnish my paintings, as I am in love with the natural satin sheen. It is one of the reasons I am so attracted to ET.

[dakini_painter]

First a correction to what I previously wrote. I use Isopropyl alcohol 91% not rubbing alcohol, but maybe they are the same thing. (I just checked and they are.) Scotch or any other high grade alcohol will work. Denatured alcohol will work.

In the isopropyl alcohol I believe the other 9% is water. The alcohol evaporates faster than the water so the chances of it remaining in your paint is small.

I personally don't use denatured alcohol as many of the hardware store brands won't even say what percentage of alcohol versus denaturants they contain. The chemicals used in making the alcohol unpalatable for drinking range from gasoline to MEK (methyl ethyl ketone). I'd rather expose myself to the dust. :-)

The drinkable stuff will certainly be high grade. The isopropyl alcohol is cheaper as one doesn't have to pay liquor taxes.

[Dimitris C. Milionis]

:arrow: I just keep the pigment totally dry, until its a need to use requirement :lol:

[Michael Brown]

When I looked at the choices on the poll, I did not see my preference listed. I almost exclusively use pigment dispersions that are factory ground and stored in plastic squeeze top containers.
So far I only have used Createx Pure Pigment Dispersions, and I have a friend Kevin Head at Kroma Acrylics here in Vancouver who supplies me with titamium white pure dispersion (set asside before he continues in the process of formulating acrylic paint )
I will use dry pigments that are micronised (the particle size is such that the pigment will disperse instantly with wetting). In these instances I generally just dip a wet brush into the jar and mix it in to the paint in round bottomed white ceramic Chinese soup bowls.

Michael Brown
Vancouver

[Alessandra Kelley]

A pigment dispersion is pigment ground in water.

I have several. They are handy for colors that are a pain to grind, or are more toxic than I would like to handle dry.

[alexgarcia]

Createx Pure Pigment Dispersions

Hi Michael. Do you by any chance know if Createx uses any additives in their dispersions? I tried contacting them to find out what was in them but they never responded. I started using them early on but got a little nervous about their permanency since I was not too sure of the full contents.

Also have you experienced any problems with peeling or anything like that?

[Michael Brown]

Thanks Alessandra, your point is well taken; dispersions obviously would fall into the first category. I guess I was hoping to make a distinction between the quality and fineness of dispersion possible using factory milling as opposed to the difficulty and danger of hand grinding the problematic pigments that you referred to.
What sources of dispersions have you tried? I would be very interested in any feedback you may have on other suppliers other than Createx (who never have responded to any inquiries that I have made over the years!).

Hi Alex, the additives that are used would be in extremely small amounts, and in no way should affect the permanence of the paint film. The only peeling that I have experienced is due to my own fault of overpainting layers of sufficiently different formulations or pigment loads.

[Alessandra Kelley]

I use dispersions from Kremer Pigments ( http://www.kremer-pigmente.de/englisch/homee.htm ). They're a German company, but they have a fabulous store in New York City -- it's tiny, but packed to the rafters with wonderful pigments.

They sell what they call "Color Concentrates" ( http://www.kremer-pigmente.de/englisch/krpigm05.htm#colorconcentrates ), which are pigments pre-ground in water. They have a good range of colors, and I have always found them very helpful in answering questions.

[jpohl]

This is so useful! Thank you to Jeff posting the link to this thread. I had been collecting baby jars and had almost given up I had so many.. but now I think it might be wise to keep collecting while i have a chance now, especially after reading this. So that's three sources for dispersions that I have to look into now: kama, kremer and sinopia.... kama is close but they didn't have a lot of choices.

I had childhood asthma (even ended up in an oxygen tent from second hand smoke) and although I grew out of it soon enough, am not about to take a chance with my little ones. Will also be investing in another hepa air cleaner...

And some of the baby food is not so bad... you can put some of the organic fruit or berries on ice cream or in yogurt if you want to develop a taste.:smile:

[jim]

dry kept in the same jars so long that the labels have long ago turned brown and flaked off.

[paintrman]

Jpohl...and Guerra Paint in New York. Don't forget Guerra!

I have most pigments ground in water and yes, stored in baby food jars. I don't have any problem with them drying out this way. The pigments that mold, I either store dry or have as a pigment dispersion. My yellow ochres and quinacridones are stored dry. I recently discovered pigment dispersions and really like them and have just recently ordered some more. They are very concentrated and bright and convenient.

[Breid]

It looks like Guerra has every pigment known to man! And the quality is good you say?

I'm keeping them "wet", well sort of wet. They keep drying up on me or they get mouldy, then I curse a bit and end up tossing some dried pigment into the jar, add some water and shake. All the mask/grinding stuff goes out the window because I'm usually in the middle of it.

Dispersions sound great in an over-complicated life.

[Choronzon]

As I have done little work as of yet I can say little except this, cadmium is bad stuff and is not something I want airborne. I have cads that I will grind in oil but the oil seems to settle the dust problem pretty quick whereas water seems to harbor dry pockets which burst. So far most of my pigments are in the form of Guerra dispersions and they seem to keep forever, trust me I bought them over a year ago and they still are still clean and clear. They do settle after a bit but that is good in my books as I can see exactly how much pigment I have and how much water. So far it looks to be about 80 to 90% pigment per jar which is pretty amazing for the price.

[jeff]

Mine are mostly wet too, though some that I consider safe I keep dry. Sarah, when I mix my medium up I don't dilute it with water but with white wine like icon painters do. It lasts longer, smells very nice, is an excuse to buy wine, and it does make the pigments mix easily. I think it makes the medium somewhat nicer to use in application too though I suspect it dries a bit quicker.

[Alessandra Kelley]

I do begin to wonder if Kremer isn't adding some dispersal agent to its water-dispersed pigments. My Chromium Oxide Green (toxic) and my Iron Oxide Red (just stubborn to hand-grind) both have an odd, gluey texture and mix to a very thick consistency. They seem to paint okay, though.

[cmunisso]

Dry for long time, many years.
Wet for short time, few month.