alternative grounds

[eggart]

I just don't like making the traditional panels (though I like their surface). I don't get too many good panels for the effort I put in, so I'm wondering if anyone here can recommend alternatives for me. The commercial panels are too hard and slick. Can watercolor paper be glued to hardboard and used? Can egg tempera be applied directly to RSG (no chalk) coated hardboard? MUST one use the chalk gesso ground? Are there other alternatives?

[eggart]

Just a little more info--though an experienced artist, I'm fairly new at egg tempera so I'm still learning. But the recipe I was using was simply plain gelatin heated in a double boiler with garden variety lime added to it. Is lime different enough from chalk that it would make a difference? I checked and it seems chemically that whiting, chalk, etc are chemically the same as garden variety lime, just not as white. The panels that came out well were wonderful to paint on, I just have trouble duplicating the process since the glue/lime tends to absorb into the previous layer before I've had a chance to spread it smooth. Also sometimes the new layer picks up the layer beneath, complicating things further. I end up with very lumpy surfaces which require a lot of sanding. Hence, a lot of work.

[JanMoore]

I just checked my reference book, Formulas for Painters, because I had never heard of anyone using lime as a ground for egg tempera. Generally, this is used for fresco but I also found a recipe for use with casein. Also, some pigments are stable with lime with a high magnesium content

Lime is a different substance from "whiting" which is calcium carbonate. There are different kinds of lime, too, but the best pit lime is made from marble and is mostly calcium oxide. (reference Kremer Pigments catalog.)

I recommend that you use a "mix" for RSG gesso. You can buy these premixed. I prefer the one made by Gamblin because it seems to be the sofest. This may be available through catalogs (try Jerry's Artarama or Cheap Joe's.)

[JanMoore]

Oops! a typo. I meant are Not stable with lime.

[eggart]

Hi Jan, thank you for the info, especially the incompatiblity of lime with some pigments part. While looking for the products you mentioned I ran across some cautionary warnings about using traditional rabbit skin glue for gesso due to it's inherent property of absorbing atmospheric moisture and cracking over many decades and/or centuries. I suppose I shouldn't be concerned about that, but the cautions do seem to be logical. Are there no modern inorganic products that have similar properties to the traditional? Also, I read somewhere on this site about paper being used, has anyone tried gluing paper to board for egg tempera? Thanks again.

[Salamander]

I ran across some cautionary warnings about using traditional rabbit skin glue for gesso due to it's inherent property of absorbing atmospheric moisture and cracking over many decades and/or centuries.

RSG is the way to go. Remember it lasts for centuries! That's hundreds of years. Make sure you want your work around that long.

Golden makes an absorbent ground that is acceptable for et and they make a sandable ground that would probably work too but I have no experience with that.

DON'T USE PIT LIME! That is the medium for fresco work. The only things it has in common with et is that it has been around for just about as long and you use dry pigments.

A good recipe for rsg gesso is:
1/3 warm rsg solution
1/3 Zinc Oxide
1/3 marble dust

You can also use technical gelatine in place of rsg
You can also use titanium dioxide with the zinc.
You can also use whiting in place of the zinc and marble dust.
You can also vary all your proportions a bit to your satisfaction. (more glue = less absorbent)
Zinc oxide and whiting can be economically purchased from most pottery supply people.

You can certainly use watercolur paper glued to a board. Hard pressed gives you a very smooth surface whereas the cold press does not.

Have fun! Experiment! Do something new!

[turlogh]

The commercial panels are too hard and slick.Which commercial panels have you tried?

[eggart]

I've tried clayboard which is advertised for egg tempera, but I thought it was pretty non-abosorbant and I didn't like the feel or the effect. Also commercial panels can run into some money and I'd like to minimize the cost of panels.

Does anyone know what is the best adhesive to mount watercolor paper to board? I'd like to give it a try. Should I 'stick' with RSG? Or use something like acrylic medium?

[PhilS]

eggart,
Back when I used to make my own gesso I used calcium carbonate. You can buy it in quart containers from pharmacies (it is used as an antacid). I think I used to pay about 6 dollars for a quart (many years ago). Cheap.
Now I use Fredrix Dry Gesso mix which isn't cheap, but it is convenient and it works. If you plan to sell your work you would be advised to be careful about the materials you use. Otherwise, by all means, experiment! And let us know what happens.
Phil
p.s. don't know anything about mounting watercolor paper...

[dbclemons]

I have this link on file as a reference for a whitewash lime (plaster) recipe that you might find informative. It's directed towards casein and fresco work. The sort of lime used is hydrated lime (aka slackened) and a starch glue.
http://fortress.uccb.ns.ca/search/HG05_8.htm

As for mounting paper, I've lately been using a dextrin paste made by Gane Bros. called Yes!. It works very well. Before that I used either hide glue/gelatin, PVA, or other starches. Starch pastes are generally easier to handle in this case, to my experience.

http://www.ganebrothers.com/products/adhesives/yes_paste.htm

BTW, Ampersand's Claybord uses an acrylic polymer in their ground so that may explain the non-absorbency you've found.

[eggart]

PhilS--thanks for the direction, I'll try it, and I might try the premix for comparison. At this point I am only experimenting with egg tempera which is why I wish to keep my materials cheap. No sense in putting a lot of money into something I won't sell! Though I must say, I feel like a duck taking to water with egg tempera, it seems to resolve all the issues I had with oil, acrylics and watercolor while giving me the best qualities of each. The detail and textural effects one can achieve is just amazing and untouchable in any other media that I know of. Thanks.

dbclemons--thank you for the links. I may try the lime recipe. I think lime is an inert compound (right?), so it really should not react adversly to any pigment or egg binder when I think about it (having been used for centuries in frescoes after all). The panels I made with lime that did work out were absolutely wonderful to work on, so the lime does make a fine base I think. Maybe I just needed a good recipe. Thanks.

[artsyiconophile]

Actually, there are pigments that act adversely with lime. Check out Kremer's web site and you can learn more. Reading the descriptions of the various pigments sold on naturalpigments.com and/or on Iconofile will inform you which pigments won't work with lime. Some change color completely when applied to lime.

Here is a link to a listing of pigments that are "lime proof":

http://www.kremer-pigmente.de/englisch/fresco.htm

[eggart]

artsy that's good info, thanks a lot. I use a limited palette anyway so I won't have much trouble finding my colors on that chart.

I have to say to all who have responded-- I like this site because many of you seem to have good techinical knowledge that is solidly based in experience. It's great to build on the experience of others, I appreciate it.

[Bert Congdon]

I would not try lime when chalk works so well. I buy it from Kremer in 10 kilo bags. I do not use a double boiler since it can over heat. Steam can be much hotter than water. I simply have it in a water bath. I apply it with a four inch wall brush and never wait for one coat to dry before applying the next coat. I do eight 24x30 panels at a time. By the time I finish giving them one coat, the first one has lost its wet sheen, and I go immediately over them again, and again for four or five coats. I then make sure they are placed to dry evenly and slowly. Never near a hot air register or radiater; and not outdoors. With the formula I use, I have never had a failure. It just seems so simple, cheap, and easy. I don't want to fix it if it ain't broke, so I have no intention of trying anything else.

[David McKay]

Bert, I agree with you completely. There has been so much talk on this forum over the years about alternatives to traditional gesso. I personally do not see what all the fuss is about. Traditional gesso is (as you say) easy cheap and most of all reliable. I make my gesso and apply it pretty much as you do. I have also prepared large panels that can easily be cut up into smaller ones later on if desired. David

[Bert Congdon]

Thanks David

[Alessandra Kelley]

I agree. You can vary a traditional chalk gesso with whiting or chalk or ground marble dust, you can add pigment or not, but basically the old recipe of rabbitskin glue and chalk works, and has worked reliably for thousands of years.

I think Ralph Mayer suggested gelatine as a substitute for rabbitskin glue, but it is weaker. There is little evidence that any of the chemical tinkering people have tried for the last three-hundred-odd years has improved the recipe. Given what has happened to acrylics over the last fifty years, I am going to view any supposed improvement with scepticism until it has proved itself.

It does take some work to figure out the best way to prepare panels, but this is true of any physical skill. And there are plenty of artists of goodwill at this site who are glad to help anyone learn.

[sabine]

Alexandra,

that's probably a sillty question but what has happened with acrylics over the last 50 years?

Sabine

[dbclemons]

...I think Ralph Mayer suggested gelatine as a substitute for rabbitskin glue, but it is weaker...

Ralph actually recommends (in his book "The Painter's Craft") rabbitskin or calfskin glues as giving the best results, but says glues of bone or fish are an alternative; more for sizing material than as binders or adhesives.

I've made many gesso panels with casein, and found them to be very nice and equal to any I've made with RSG.

[eggart]

dbclemons I wondered if you would mind telling me the process for casein gesso panels? Thanks.

[Alessandra Kelley]

Sabine:

Over the last fifty years acrylics have been increasingly used in art and design, but it has also become increasingly clear that they deteriorate in unpleasant and irreversible ways. For example, acrylic furniture, and even astronauts' space suits, are crumbling and fogging. Acrylic paints are already known to have numerous structural problems (see links below), and it seems likely that they will also show ageing troubles.

Links:
http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/byform/mailing-lists/cdl/2005/1319.html
http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/byform/mailing-lists/cdl/2002/1361.html
http://www.si.edu/MCI/english/learn_more/taking_care/acrylic_paintings.html
http://www.tate.org.uk/research/tateresearch/majorprojects/conservation_modernpaints.htm

General info on plastic degradation:
http://www.discover.com/issues/dec-00/departments/featchemistry/

[sabine]

Thank you very much for these informations :-)

[Salamander]

Great information, Thanks,
Eric in Oceanside

[dbclemons]

dbclemons I wondered if you would mind telling me the process for casein gesso panels? Thanks.

I's basically much the same as a hide glue recipe, but I make it a bit stronger (less diluted.)
http://www.sinopia.com/casein.html

[jeff]

There is no reason not to paint onto watercolour paper. I have tried it glued to a board and also free without problems. It isn't as good as gesso though. Another easy sort of ground to make is just using rabbit skin glue to attach calico (light cotton) to a board. It doesn't really need any other treatment if you don't want too. The presence of a weave can produce very nice effects in egg tempera so it shouldn't be frowned upon. I remember seeing in a book on Egyptian mummy portraits an example of egg tempera painted on loose cloth that had survived quite well for 1800 years too.

[sabine]

jeff, you paint on simple, unprepared aquarel paper? or do you glue it first?

I'm thinking of trying other kinds of supports too!

[Alessandra Kelley]

Most of Ben Shahn's tempera paintings are on paper. I would put on a sizing of rabbitskin glue.

[sabine]

OK that would have been too easy :grin:

[jeff]

I don't really use watercolour papers much but I don't size them. They should be sized in most cases anyway. I have back painted egg tempera onto glass as well and it is quite interesting to try. It is really throwing away most of the unique properties of egg tempera though because it creates a powerful graphic effect.

[Salamander]

I'm wondering about using methylcellulose (CMC) gum and whiting or zinc or titanium diox, or any other combination as a primer/sealer/ground for paper under et.
A version of this is sometimes sold as silverpoint ground.

[jeff]

The methylcellulose (CMC) gum plus Zn and TiO is really just a form of gesso (which is just glue plus white pigment). I usually add TiO to my gesso too. It makes it whiter and does provide a bit better bite to silverpoint than just whiting alone. It's probably perfectly OK to use on paper for ET. You may have to do it both sides though.

[KristyM]

Hi
I have just gotten my supplies from Sinopia. It is my first (gulp!) time making a panel...
I made the water:RSG at 1:16 oz each and added 24 oz. whiting. I painted several panels of birch and of the 4 2 peeled off after the second layer was applied and 2 did not.
The solution is very thin to me and applies transparent when dry.
Am I doing something wrong?
I saw this on www.art-boards.com/Acrylic2%0Panel%20Gesso.htm: Art Boards™ “Acrylic Panel Gesso” is specifically formulated for use on wood panels or panels mounted with canvas or paper. It is a ready-to-use premium ground that completely seals the surface and perfectly prepares the panel to accept paint. Says it can be used for tempera...
Makes me want to buy already made to paint boards...

[PhilS]

Kristy,
The most common problem for new ET painters seems to be gessoing panels. Make it easy for yourself. Buy some Fredrix Dry Gesso mix or a similar, prepared mix from Sinopia or Natural Pigments - there are several out there. If you use Fredrix, mix almost equal amounts powder and water, I use slightly more mix. (The directions say 2:1; ignore them.) Use a double boiler so you don't overheat the mixture. Then just apply six to eight layers, brushing in opposite directions on each subsequent coat. Allow 15 to 20 minutes drying time between coats. That's it. Very easy. I've been doing it for twenty years without a hitch.
To smooth the panel dip a block of wood in water and rub it in a circular motion over the surface. Then a light sanding and you're done.
Phil

[sabine]

or you can just add more whiting (spanish white for ex.)

I also find that givent recipes don't suggets enough whiting - I found it awfull to gesso my panels at first, now I think it's OK, you just have to find your own way

there has already been a subject about the use (or not!) of acrylic gesso for tempera (in the coffee shop?) and the most widespread opinion was that it was unsafe to use it, especially in the long term - but some people do use it anyway

good luck and don't give up :lol:

Sabine

[Bert Congdon]

Kristy, it just might be that you are letting them dry too quickly. I had a lot of trouble when I first started, but I did a lot of experiments, found what works and have never deviated from that winning formula. I have put several pieces on here about what I do, but it occurs to me that I may not have mentioned: MAKE SURE THEY DRY SLOWLY. NEVER ALLOW THEM TO BE NEAR A HOT RADIATOR NOR SHOULD YOU ALLOW THEM NEAR A HOT AIR REGISTER, AND CERTAINLY NOT IN THE SUN. If I have a good drying day, I might lay them out on tables and cover them with plastic, and a couple times a day, I lift the plastic off (it will be soaking wet) and let the plastic and the panels dry for an hour, then put the plastic back on. I like them to take two days or more to dry. The rest, I have already written in detail...more than once. I'm no expert, but neither have I had any failures in some years.

[jeff]

I'd be interested in hearing about the use of canvas for a surface. I was thinking that over time ET and oil paint come to about the same brittleness and so maybe a coarse weave canvas would hold ET quite well. Or does it require the addition of oil to the ET to make it just abit more flexible.

[Bert Congdon]

When my panel is ready, I mix the glue to carpenter grade. Perhaps your glue is powder, mine is is in what they call pearls, little globs the size of small pearls. I put a few ounces in a coffee can and add just enough water to cover the pearls, then put it in a pan of warm water. I slowly warm this as I stir. This is a strong glue. So far as I know , this is used in making furniture. I cut a piece of canvas a little larger than my piece of wood. I slather a generous coat of glue on to the wood panel and another generous coat onto the canvas. I slap the canvas down onto the panel and smooth it out with a piece of plastic I get from a paint store used for squeezing air bubbles out of wallpaper. I squeeze out the bubbles and excess glue. It is stiff and has a rounded smooth edge. What works just as well is the plastic case that your CDs come in. You must move right a long because you don't have much time. You must get this done before it cools.

I have enough canvas that I can wrap it around onto the back. I staple it onto th back. This is really not necessary, but I have been afraid that while drying, it might curl up. I trim the excess canvas on the back after it is dry.

Do I canvas some? No, I canvas every one, and you can't pull that canvas off without ripping the board apart. I have used both cotton and linen. I am generous with it. Why not? I got a deal once and bought a hundred yards of each. I am near 79 now, and I know I will never use it. Bert :-)

[Alessandra Kelley]

Oooh, helpful! Thanks, Bert, I really appreciate your sharing your accumulated knowledge and wisdom.

[jeff]

I was interested in canvas only supports as you would on a stretcher - though your methods for attaching the cloth to board is very helpful too, Bert - thanks.

[Bert Congdon]

I just don't think a flexable ground is useful for ET.

[dbclemons]

FYI: I was shopping at a local Jerry's Artarama yesterday, and picked up a couple panels. They're made by P.E.R. Belle Arti in Italy and are called "Panelli a Gesso." Cost @$15 for 11x14". It's traditional gesso on a poplar veneer panel @ 1/4" thick. The surface feels very nice. One I bought was gesso, the other was oil primed (@$26,) and they had some with cotton canvas mounted to them primed with acrylic.

http://www.pieraccini.com/Default_html/lng/en
http://www.jerrysartarama.com/art-supply-stores/online/4139

[sabine]

hi

I do begin to use canvas for egg/oil emulsion - I use strong linen, one coat rabbit skin glue, then glue a rather thin coton cloth on it when it's dry (one more glue coat+ put the coton in the glue, then put it on the linen (gosh I can't explain this in english!!!) I press it with my hands so that the adherence is perfect and there are no air bubbles

then when it's dry one or two coats of gesso (not more otherwise it's too brittle)

that's OK for egg/oil tempera, I don't know for pure ET...

Sabine

[jeff]

I think I understand, Sabine. You are making a very stiff laminate with the cotton and the linen and gesso. I suppose this is done while the linen is on the stretcher frame? Do you gesso both sides as well?

jeff

[sabine]

jeff I just gesso one side, as you would do for oil painting - yes, I do it while the linen is on the strecher frame (or at least I suppose so, I can't find "strecher frame" in my dictionnaries :oops: )

and the wole (linen+coton+"light" gesso) STAYS on the frame and must be handled very carefully...

it make a more stable surface than simple streched canvas and you can work on much bigger scales than with wooden support without getting too heavy

that site does certainly strech my english :-)

[Dennis H]

Sabine,
Your English is completely understandable. Do not worry or apologize. (Perhaps we'll ask you to translate the entire site into bilingual francais/nederlands!)
In English a stretcher is also called a chassis. Strictly speaking, a stretcher should have expandable corners. One with fixed, immovable joints is a strainer.
Dennis

[sabine]

Thank you Dennis :-)

"Chassis", allright, why didn't tell you so? :lol:
For the translation, I have some doubts about my abilities, with all the technical and very specific language!! and don't rely on my dutch, it is really awfull...

But thanks for your trust anyway!!

[RobM]

Sabine,
Have no doubts. I am sure that the majority of regular contibutors here are fully appreciative of your hard work in translating to submit a topic. You have the upper hand, you speak a number of languages which most of us don't. Your contributions are valued so don't let language barriers get in the way.
Rob

[sabine]

the fact is that I have no choice if I want to get the informations, there is no equivalent of this site in french (or at least I didn't find it...)

jeff, if you want to try it, remember the glue must be quite warm and you should proceed quite quickly...

I found the indications in "La technique de la peinture à l'huile" from Xavier de Langlais, wich does mention a few ints for ET (you CAN find SOME informations in french!)

[jeff]

It can't help your translating if I get the spelling wrong. Sorry Sabine. I do find this information very informative.

[jeff]

Another question, Sabine. The gesso you use on the linen/cotton: is it an oil emulsion gesso or just the same as we would use on board?

jeff

[sabine]

it's the same gesso I would use on a board, maybe even a little more diluted with water, so that it doesn't make the surface to brittle (it would crack :-? )

the linen must be really strong to be stable enough

You are also into "big" formats and egg/oil emulsions?

[jeff]

My maximum sizes tend to be about 1.2x1m though I have done ET on cotton to 2.5x2m without any hard support. Incidentally I have seen no flaking or cracking at that size, but I wouldn't trust it. I'm interested in your methods because I'd like to be able to go larger and feel safer about the result. On the large cotton I may have used an oil emulsion, come to think of it, as a precaution. Oil emulsion I don't really like though. I do use wax emulsion a bit, but that, if anything, will weaken ET on fabric.

jeff

[Salamander]

Not to change course dramatically. On another note and another ground. I've been having some nice effects with light amber shellac mixed with titanium and whiting as an alternative to gesso. It provides an very nice amber ground with a very nice tooth. Give it a try. Two or three coats on a piece of wood or hard board. Dries ready to go in a couple of hours.

[jeff]

That does sound interesting. What is the dilution of the shellac? If it was too concentrated I would be worried that there would be poor adhesion. Mind you I use glas sometimes and that would have to be the poorest.

By the way, Sabine, could I use heavy cotton duck instead of linen?

jeff

[Salamander]

I used a three pound cut. That was by accident though. Two pound would probably be better.
-eric

[sabine]

I do that kind of formats (1m10X60) now - I used to do bigger ones with oil painting...

But I don't see I how you can work on such scales with pure ET???

coton is supposed to be an unsuitable support even for oil painting: too flexible (i did use a strong coton for oil painting years ago though and it seems OK...)

when you did ET on coton, you prepared the coton only with rabbit glue? I wonder if it's not the best way in the end... anything too much like gesso on a flexible support just cracks too easily... Maybe I'll try that, with linen... and just a little titanium whiting...

amber shellac?? where do you find this? isn't it expensive?

[dbclemons]

I've sized paper with a 2 pound cut of shellac and tinted it with pigment, but have never also added whiting. You can find shellac at good pigment suppliers or places that sell/make fine furniture. Buy the dried flakes, not pre-mixed in cans.

[Salamander]

If you add titanium and or zinc and whiting it works really nice for silverpoint as well.

[jeff]

Sabine, big ET paintings just need big brushes. I don't find ET all that much different to use than acrylic.

And David, forgive my ignorance, but what is a 2 pound cut?

jeff

[dbclemons]

Hey, Jeff. The "pound cut" is the term that describes the percentage of shellac to solvent (alcohol.) I've seen mixes as high as 8 pound for wood finishing. A one pound cut (aka French Polish) is typical for a size mixture (2:16 oz.) A 2 pound cut is approximately 2 oz of flakes to 8 oz of alcohol.

[sabine]

jeff, I'm the one now who bows to your expertise :-) I still don't see how you manage, I should probably try again (if I'm brave enough...)

[jeff]

Actually, Sabine, maybe you could guide me to using oil in ET better. Can I use it like retarder to slow the drying of the paint or am I hoping for too much there?

[jeff]

Thanks, David. I'll have to give this size a trial.

[Alessandra Kelley]

I am not sure of the physics of adding oil to already-made egg tempera paint. As I said, the egg-oil emulsion I worked with was mixed before ever making the paint. Has anyone tried this? Adding a drop of linseed oil to paint to make, as Jeff said, a "retarder" (to slow drying time), the way you would add clove oil to oil paint?

(I once added a drop of clove oil to oil paint, to see how long it would take to dry. Clove oil from the art supply store made oil paint that normally dried in one day take a week. Clove oil from the health food store made it take over a month.)

[Bert Congdon]

I put clove oil in my egg/water mixture to make it last longer in the frig. I can't tell it's in there by use or by drying rate.

[Salamander]

I put clove oil in my egg/water mixture to make it last longer in the frig. I can't tell it's in there by use or by drying rate.

I couldn't tell by the drying rate so much either but it kept it 'fresh' in the fridge for about a month.

[sabine]

I think that yes, adding some oil has a "retarder" effect

I do put my egg/oil paint in tubes and keep it for weeks (months :grin: ) that's one of the reasons I'm so fond of this formula, I'm not very good with all the fuss of making new paint each day (and I allways made too much, couldn't stand to throw it, ended overpainting everything in green for ex. if I had green left...)

bref

while painting, the egg/oil takes longer to dry thant pure ET - I generally use very little paint, diluted with quite a lot of water - I love to sketch directly on the board/canvas, which I can't do with pure ET. If doesn't go right, I wipe it off with a wet piece of coton

[Kate]

Ralph actually recommends (in his book "The Painter's Craft") rabbitskin or calfskin glues as giving the best results, but says glues of bone or fish are an alternative; more for sizing material than as binders or adhesives.

I've made many gesso panels with casein, and found them to be very nice and equal to any I've made with RSG.

Sturgeon glue is the BEST but it is also soooooooo expensive. I like the rabbit skin glue from Utrect because it is in nice small grains.

I use a cheap crock pot to make my gesso

[jeff]

I think that the gesso ground mainly arose in order to cover the uneven surface of handmade panels. It does have nice qualities but a sanded and sized surface of RSG on mdf panel should be OK too. A relatively easy surface to make is using muslin that is applied with RSG. On an mdf panel you would need to do this on both sides. If you use a fine muslin then the effect is quite nice and will enable more of a painting style like oil on canvas. ET is not going to rot the cloth ground like oil paint would without it's special grounds that are intended to protect the cloth. There are plenty of examples of ET on cloth painting - even without a rigid support though that is preferable.

[Bert Congdon]

The real stuff is so nice to draw and paint on that I have used it for years for oil painting as well as egg tempera. Made the way I have described elsewhere on this forum, I like to draw with silver point right on the gesso (works great), paint an underpainting using umber and lead white in Griffin alkyd (dries overnight), then color it with oil glazes or a second coat of color in egg yolk. I never add oil (except for the drop of clove oil) to the egg/water. I do not wish to give up the true gesso panells the way I prepare them. I have been painting on them for twenty years.